I asked my LinkedIn network one simple question in this poll.
Does having kids hold you back in your career?
Over 4200 people responded.
44% percent said "yes."
Because of that, I wanted to curate a very real and vulnerable discussion.
This episode is a recording of that discussion.
I also want to thank all of the speakers who participated in this conversation:
Tomaso Veneroso, President & CEO | Mining, Aggregate & Recycling
Antrea Ferguson, COO of Shankx Web Development
Ambreen Mohsin, Software Development Lecturer
Jack Jendo, Founder and Social Entrepreneur
In a perfect world, it would be great to say, oh, you know, building a business going up the career is the same when you have a child as when you don't. And the reality is, is that it's different. So those truths and those differences kind of came out in the poll that I shared. And I want to read some of the comments on second. So I asked a Daigo does having kids hold people back in their career 4243 professionals voted 44% said yes, 52% said no. And 4% said other, I want to read some of the comments. And then when we could kind of start the discussion as a father of six, I can tell you from experience that after 23 years of raising children and building my career, there are both pros and cons. I would not trade this for anything in the world. That said they do and will change your path in many ways for the better, but they absolutely affect your potential in certain cases. The knows my point of view, likely come from parents of two or fewer, under 13, unengaged or not living with children. Again, would I change anything? No. Another one, having kids made me a better person, a better leader, are there times when I feel kids have held me back, leaving early to go to swimming lessons, working from home because of a cold, perhaps, but I prefer who I am now than who I was. And that's all that really matters. Another person. Having children definitely makes us rethink certain career decisions depending on what stage of parenting one is. But I must also say that it is great motivator, there are countless stories of single mothers working multiple jobs and struggling just to make life better for their children. countless stories of being brave when all they wanted to do was give up. So I think it may look as going backwards, but it's just an arrow, gathering force towards its goal. There were hundreds of comments on this post. And I'm not going to sit here and read all of them. I want to hear from you in the room. So if you want to share your experience, and you know, you have the courage to be vulnerable, then raise your hand. And let's get the discussion started. So what's up Jack? Yeah, hi. Thank you for raising this topic. It's actually in the beginning, my experience was yes, there was some feeling that something will be holding me back. But then it was amazing. Because the impact on the business first kid, it was like, I wanted to be more with him. And I started working, finding, trying to find a way to work smarter, more than harder, which is something I teach, you know, in my workshops, and I asked other companies to do like, work smart, but we don't do it because we're not maybe pushed enough or motivated. And then with the second kid, I have two kids, two babies. And with the second kid, I realized that the change that I want to see in the world is actually starting from my family. And then I started more, maybe being more pragmatic and practical with helping others either with their businesses or in the workshops, because I can see now you know, the difference. And I have the, also the struggle that many have, which is to take care of the family and all this stuff, although I didn't really find the struggle because I was doing fine with my business before having kids. But there's something that you know, bring you more motivation. Now, it's not holding me back more than pushing sometimes. And then, you know, when you find that smart way to save more times to spend more time to play more. It's helpful even on the psychological part, it helps you because it's they will help you it's not that you're helping your kids. Yeah. So what's been the most difficult part because I really want this room we share the good parts and I mean know this right? Personally, I wouldn't have even had the courage to become an entrepreneur to start my business had it not been for my daughter, right because I didn't do it prior so she was like my motivator but you know there are there are certain struggles and challenges in learning lessons and so what's been the most difficult thing Well, the the maybe maybe the theme that you need to create sometimes the wake up especially when the winter school and the challenges of you know, managing you're managing it's a whole okay, we say for our business, it's our baby, we're taking care of it but it's a different situation. Because everything you do has maybe consequences and you don't know how how to do things now on the impact on the business and in the beginning if you don't try Try to find a way to turn it for the benefit of everyone, then yeah, the struggle would be the lack of time. Now, if the couple, if there's a couple, like the moment that are there, sometimes if you're compatible, it will help. But if not, it's the challenge would be the time and the energy that you need to spend, you know, on your business, but you're not, you don't have it anymore. Because you're maybe I don't know, falling asleep, sometimes at 9pm, while you need to that peaceful time to do things. And that was in the beginning. For me even in the morning, I'm giving you giving you an example how to turn these challenges to the benefit of all, I wake up very early, and I have a walk with my kid in the morning before going to the school. And then when I when I go taking them to school, then I have like one hour to work in the morning before I couldn't wake up that early, you know, so I'm kind of making benefit for both me and my kids having more time in the morning. But yeah, in the in the first year it was it was just very hard. Like I was always tired, not having enough time to spend on my business focus, not just the time, the the time that you can focus. Time management, I think is crucial when you have kids in business. Yeah, love it. And so there are certain characteristics that I see forming in my daughter, like, you know, her personality. She's five, for reference, right. And I see great things that I think that she's been influenced by the fact that I am a business owner, for example, she's not afraid to ask for what she wants at all. And when she has more courage than me, and she's more outspoken, especially compared to me as a kid, I was very shy. Right. So maybe what's one thing in your kids that you've seen? Maybe because they're influenced by what you're doing? Your leadership? Yeah, exactly. That that is that is really important, really important point. You know, because I mean, parenting is not by by teaching anymore. It's by influencing, as you said, and yeah, because this entrepreneurial mindset is everywhere. I mean, my boy is now four years old, almost. And I keep asking him questions, you know, I keep pushing him question, I like to think even when he asked for a toy, I asked him about stuff. And he started thinking, and this the same thing that we do in business, and every time I do maybe a, trying to make to do a case study or something, I think, like, I realized that it's the same thing that is happening when I'm having conversation with him. It's critical thinking actually, that we're using this skills, you know, with kids is really amazing. And it would be even easier to, to to have that, you know, part of parenting because it's kind of collaboration, the tea between you and your kids. Of course, I don't want to make it like, you know, it's that shiny, but sometimes it's you know, it's, there's a kid that sometimes may might be nagging for something, that you're not understanding what they want, but, but if you keep working on that plot, I mean, it's totally changing. I can see the difference, like, big difference. I love it. Thanks for sharing Jack. Tomaso. What's the good, the bad and the ugly? Hi, mom. Oh, boy. Well, can you hear me first of all, it's a little bit of the backgrounds kind of loud, but a little bit yeah, yeah. I'm in the airport. As usual, but can you hear me now? Yeah, yeah. Okay, so basically my case what I'm a dad of four kids so well, they asked Do you have experience with this? Yeah, somewhat is more my wife the main point of the ugliness meaning that I am my career require tremendous amount of traveling I'm on the plane pretty much every week in remote location, mind camps, from the Arctic to Patagonia to all over the world, Africa, you name it. So clearly. That's my career. I started my career before getting married so and then the ugly is that I feel that yes, I'd be a pretty good career. Man provide, of course for my family, but in the process, due to the nature of my business that doesn't have much flexibility. I've been I would say a nice quiet debate on my chilled children grow up and even if I try to be as long as much as I can on the weekends, for sure and try to make more time jobs to be present when I can. Inevitably, logistically and physically you are Not a present dad, I didn't cause my kids to then play in the backyard and none of it. So clearly, it's I love them in my way naturally, because my goal was to provide and give the fantastic life. Thank you to my wife to support me in this and as maybe sacrificed her career to try to find a compromise. But yes, that definitely the ugly. So I The topic is very interesting, because sometimes there are careers that it's very tough to make them compatible with being a DOD president. I don't know I physically for me, it's pretty much impossible. Yeah, no, and I trust me, I completely resonate. Um, do you ever and because I resonate so much, sometimes I'm just like, you know, shinjang, maybe, maybe you don't, maybe you just like, you know, you do 100k, you don't work so hard. You stay with it, you know, you spend more time with live kind of like, because for me, I see the moms with the minivans are always at the school, right? So have you ever thought like, do like, do I want to be more present? Do I want to give this up? Like, do you struggle with that? Well, in mining, we ever say that you get the item curse, meaning that when you start the mining is such a specific segment, that is extremely complex to reinvent yourself, when you choose that path. I chose that pathway before I was married. And I guess that yes, I kind of wish that I would have maybe a different career that will allow me to be more present. But it's also true that I, we live in a society, which is very costly. And unfortunately, it's kind of difficult to find compromise. If you want to give your kids a good life, you need money. I mean, it's it's sad to say, but I don't make these rules. That's what it is, especially in New York City, New York and United States, generally speaking, I mean, as you know, cost of living is insane. So clearly, what do you do? The world's gonna make choices and, and how it is I try, as I said, to be present in my way, but is society stuff, it's very tough. And you gotta reach compromise, sometimes are very hard, not included the tension on marriages and keep going with tomorrow. So we can only deal with one of this at a time. The next one will be relationships. That's That's it successfully married for 21 years, but there's not been an easy path. Regardless, though, it's what I'm saying is that career sometimes is so demanding that require a lot from you. And, and there is no other no other way out. So that's the ugly, the good. You asked me the good, they go dissatisfaction I guess, and they get and lead by example, to never give up. And that's something that I try to show to my kids. Yeah, and that they're, you know, that they're taking care of, I'm sure they're getting great education, I'm sure they have great living, I'm sure that by the time they're, you know, ready to go to college, they're gonna be in a very good position, right. And, like, I'll share an example that I'll never forget. So if you've heard of Tim Grover, like put a little emoji or a smile, just put a reaction in the audience. But Tim Grover used to be the coach for Michael Jordan. And he coached him for like, 20 years, and he shares a story where, when his daughter was, like five years old, he was packing his suitcase because he was going on another trip, because he had to travel with Michael Jordan, right, who's a superstar legend. And his little girl goes, Daddy, like you're leaving again. You're leaving me again. And he said that in that moment, like his heart was just crushed. And he had to he explained to her, he said, Yes, I'm leaving again. Because Daddy provides daddy travels that he does business. And fast forward. She's like, 20 years old now. And I guess one moment she came to him, and she was just like, you know, I understand everything. I really appreciate the life that you've given us. Like she she basically validated all the sacrifice that he had made, and thanked him for it, even though he was not the most present physically. Because he made that sacrifice. He changed her life and and then she told him the thing that like, was the reason why he was sharing the story. She said Daddy because of you. Now I'm gonna go after my dreams. Right and so he was that model that now his Children are fearless when it comes to their dreams. And I think that that's the ultimate, you know, gift that we can give our children. You know, that's just the last thing I'll say about that. So thanks for me. Yeah, the title of this meeting, right is just kids hold people back in their careers. And for me, apologies for interrupting, but I'm from the UK, I've just landed in Dubai, and waiting for my family to arrive tomorrow morning. If your kids that you think ever are going to hold your kids going to hold your career back, you wouldn't have them in the first place. I spent 22 years in the military. And every single day, I was worried about one my girlfriend's at a time. And then when I did get married, towards the end of my career, and then when she got pregnant, and I was still serving in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. My last three years. That was the turning point. The turning point is when you close your eyelids, and you're looking from yourself from the inside, and go. And we've all grown up in different backgrounds, and I know a lot of this audience from the US and from everywhere around the world. I don't know whether there's anyone else from the UK on here. But for me, it's all about perspective, whether your upbringing, we're now in a different world, when we go through LGBTQIA. Now, we've gone through COVID, the kids that have grown up through COVID, now, it's a totally different dynamic. And I look at it now from from my own eyelids, and I go, if my son or my daughter set for life, if something happens to me tomorrow, or they set up, I put enough money aside, irrespective careers, whether you're an entrepreneur or not, I've had to grow from ground up. I'm not saying I'm the be all and end all, I haven't got multi millions of pounds. I'm not an entrepreneur, I've had to leave the military and, and grow in the corporate world and learn from myself, get a degree on my own. And that's the kind of ethics and beliefs and vision and values that I instill to my son that I'm going to see tomorrow morning, for the first time in four months. So that's for me, it doesn't hold me back. My wife doesn't hold me back. If I had a husband, if I had whatever, would never hold me back because they are part of your life. And that's the kind of challenge that you both take on together, you as a family take on together, whether it costs you millions of pounds or 50,000 pounds, it doesn't really matter. This this conversation that you're putting out to everybody is it's our choice, right? You can piggyback on Yeah, I'm sure I mean, Paul, you almost like made me cry over here. And to Moscow to like, go ahead on Traya. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. But you know, on. I'm a guy that's come from nothing. My family was tough. In the UK, my father was not a good guy. My mother used to be in hospital every week. And I used to pay the bills used to go and see her, pull her out, got away from that situation. And now she's happy. And then I joined the military. And the reason why I joined the military is because I wanted to get out there. That's the sole reason why I've done it. I had no opportunity. And then I've grown I've done my 22 years in my career, I got to the highest level I ever done. And now I'm working in Saudi Arabia in an absolutely loving it. And, but my family comes first. Like all of you on this call, you will drop everything at a needle, like a needle in the dark, you'd hear that hit the ground, you would drop everything you just forget your checkbook, your credit cards, your family, whoever's laying in that room, you'd be gone, like I do with my brothers in the military. And I did, you would do that. And I'm just saying to you, do they hold you back? No, we wanted them. We took them on, because we want to give them something that maybe we never had the mother and father never give us we want to pass on and make sure that they're great. And to be fair, do I want to see my son walking down the aisle? Of course, you want to see your daughter walking down the aisle? Of course you do irrespective. And I think Hi. Can I add something to what you're saying just now? Of course. I'm hearing lots of perspectives, but I hear dad's perspectives on this I'm sorry if you hear my kids on the back, because I am a working mother. And like it's a with me. So what I think is somebody has to do the sacrifice. So if you are being the dad, and you're working, and you're going out and doing your job, there is somebody at the home, staying with the kids taking that part doing that. I am working. I work as a lecturer. But I've seen but I've seen that. Yes, it takes a toll on your career. It does. And then, you know, the how I tackle with it is I just make sure that why am i I'm doing it for? So being a working mother, I think so it's different than being a working father. Our society has made this known where fathers have to work and they can be away and they can keep all the responsibilities of the kids on the on the mom. And then you know, but now we are now you have a mother who's working. It is difficult. My day starts early. Yes, I totally I totally agree. Your wife does the same. It does. My mother brought me my brother brought me up and my two brothers on her own on her own. So to single mothers, I salute you to single dads, I salute you. And I really do. And I 100%. And I hope nobody wants to be in that position. People get divorced. Yes, they do. Things do not work out. That's the way of life. But to single mums that look after kids and then go to work to single dads, as well. It's a modern world now. And and it's society and for you to, to adapt, overcome. Look, after your children, given the best, they can have a half. That's all we want in life, that's what we want. So they're not holding back your career. You know, I think society is changed. My husband is working, both of us are working. So it's not it is difficult. And you know, you need to make that realization is holding me off now. But maybe in 510 years. My guiding Yeah, and I love that one, one second, AJ. So I love all of these perspectives, because, you know, tomorrow. So Paul Jacques shared and bring your home with your children, your husband's at work, I've had the experience that I'm the sole provider of my child, right, while I build my business. So there's nobody out in, you know, out in the field making all the money. And you know, I'm both. And so I love that, you know, there's so many different kinds of scenarios, because people in the audience that we're serving, just by having this conversation are in many different scenarios themselves. So I'm glad AJ, go, go ahead. And then on Trey, I know that you want to share something, too. Yeah, so this sounds like this is like a big passion of mine. You know, I I'm actually, you know, my, my background, I'm an engineer, and I was in the energy sector, and I was in private equity. And then we had my son. And, you know, for a while my wife and I were both doing, like, trying to have it all. And everything, just just to kind of give you the flip scenario, like I ended up making the sacrifice and not staying in the corporate role. My wife is the one that stayed in her role. And I took on the opportunity to then, you know, create a lifestyle business for myself, and try to build something for my child. And I think ultimately, the question that Shinae poses do does having kids hold people back in their careers? Well, I think I think you can change your path. But I think changing path doesn't mean holding back. In fact, changing a path could be more opportunity. And just a different way to see the world. And if you're somebody who wants to achieve and do what it takes to get where you need to go. I mean, the host of this session right here, Shinae is just absolutely proof of that. You can either use your your children as your excuse, or you can use them as your drive. And I'd be willing to bet that the anybody that's going to be on this kind of a call and have a conversation is probably going to be a person that's going to use them as their drive. I love AJ and I know AJ little bit so I also know he brings an even bigger perspective here because AJ, your child had health issues. That's absolutely correct. My, my son has a congenital heart condition. And so just having him was already a challenge for my wife and I as we were older, and then halfway through the pregnancy, we found out that, you know, it was a was a lot of emotions. But essentially, you know, he had this heart defect which, you know, for anybody that understands the term zipper, which is what happens when they cut open your chest, and they have to do an operation on you, my son at three months old already had one. And it just layered on that much more stress to everything we were going through. And I think within a few months of that COVID hit. So it's been a, it's been a challenge, but then, you know, you can sit back and you've got a choice, you can let it dictate how your life is gonna be. Or you can decide to take control and push forward. And we just made a decision that we weren't going to we were going to look at it like, Okay, this is our challenge now. We're going to take it on, and then you know, move on to the next challenge after that. I love it. What was the most difficult part about not just balancing, you know, if balance exists, but not just handling? Okay, your wife's career, you're exiting corporate starting your business? And then also your son's health condition? What was like the hardest, darkest point? And how did you overcome that. So like, if someone in the audience is at that point, what's the first thing that they could do to maybe get to the other side, you know, for me, like, it's faith and family, like, you just have to go back to you just have to go back to your support system. Ultimately, you need that support system, I refer to it as having a, you know, life fulfillment, or filling your cup, so to speak, where you just know that what is important, which is your family, your you know, your parents, your spouse, your kids, your siblings, having that strong basis, and then having a basis of faith around it that that ultimately for me, and I'm not, I'm not saying you know, when I talk about faith, that faith is my personal thing. I'm not pushing anything on anyone, I'm just saying, having some sort of faith in some structure in some way, along with family for us that that's what helped the most. Because somebody was there, somebody was there to talk to somebody was there to counsel you. And that's how we got through this. It wasn't easy. But you know, anything in life, I feel like, if it becomes challenging, it means that you're either you're meant to rise to it so that you can grow as a person and then help other people along the way. I love it. Thank you so much, AJ, and then on Traya. Hi, yes. So I love this conversation, because it's an opportunity for me to see what my decision to not have children enables other people to do. To give you a little bit of my background, I have a myriad of reasons why I haven't had children up to this point. And I wasn't always a person who wanted to be child free. And in our community, yes, there is a child free community, we use the term child free instead of child less, which connotates that you're missing something. We don't have children, but I only think that's true of those who have children. And that's what missed them if they weren't a part of their lives. And very often children are heavy part of their purpose, the reasons why they do what they want to do. But let me tell you why I think it's important that we not that we risk not only respect people's reasons for not having children, but respect their opinion that children would hold them back. We need people to believe that having children would hold them back in their careers. Otherwise, we wouldn't have people who have made sacrifices that enable you all to be able to have children because for everyone. I agree. Yeah. So for everyone who is like, you know, you shouldn't work so hard. He shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that. And it's like, okay, would anybody really tell Steve Jobs who who happens to be a father, but there were some sacrifices and if you watch his biopic or read his book, or read any of his family, you'll see that there there are a lot of people in his family that aren't exactly happy with the fact that he was absent or maybe not. I guess to them, the best father that he could be, and I'm sure there's loads of other people, but we use their products every day, they make our lives easier. We everybody that had a dream, especially if they're well known or made some kind of contribution to the world made sacrifices and some of them, some of us, yes, it is having children. But it doesn't mean that there aren't still ways that we can contribute to society or take care of children, or be responsible ants and auntie, aunts and uncles or amazing people, teachers. There's all kinds of people that are child free in this world that still take care of them every day, or still do things that help others have satisfaction in their own lives, because they enable them to be parents. I know for me, aside from that, I I also have a huge problem with people kind of, first of all, assuming that I will have children or that I need to have them or that I missing something when they don't know my health situation. And by the way, if you are a person who asks, So when are y'all gonna have children? Like, please stop doing that. Because there's a lot of women that have health issues. I have a lot of friends that risked their lives to have I mean, every woman that has a child risks their lives, they give up their bodies, it doesn't work this way. I don't care what she doesn't work the same as before. I'm incredibly happy that I'm here. But yes, my mother, her body never function the same. I know stories of you know, when, especially if you listen to a lot of podcasts that say, so what happened? When did it when did it all start and the mother, the woman will say, Well, it all started with my first child, or my second child, and the back pain never really went away. They go through these stories, and it's just hard on you, it's hard on your physical body, let alone your emotional mental health. And that's a whole nother realm of conversation. But to expect or assume that everyone wants to take that on, I feel like is just not your place. Like, I don't think that everyone needs to be pressured into having children. And I don't know if it's healthy to tell them that nothing is going to happen or change in their, with their career or their lives in that like academically or whatever it is that they're trying to achieve. Back to the question, Does having kids hold people back in their careers? I mean, by definition, whatever you want to attain, whatever you're trying to achieve? If you cannot do that, because of children, then by that very definition, yes, it holds you back. But there are so many reasons why, especially a lot of you on this call why that was not the case. And that's where I agree with Paul, where he says, if they were going to hold you back, you wouldn't have them to begin with, you wouldn't have them in the first place. And there was a moment because I wasn't always one who knew that I wanted to be childless by choice. I did have a strong desire to have children. But the funny thing is that I was a teacher for a very long time as well. And I took care of my nephew as well, for a very long time. And I said, you know, if I never have children, I feel like I've had that experience. But I am sorry, I got a little bit wrapped up in a lot of my thoughts. But I think that, yeah, we need people to believe that so that they can enable others to be able to take care of their children in a way that's happy and healthy and good for them and their family. And yeah, so I had other caretaking responsibilities, but I'm not going to change my mind or risk my body. And I don't encourage other people, especially if they have maybe even fragile mental health to go down the road to force themselves to do something out of societal or familial pressure. Yeah, we're gonna have to have a another room on that with the question being, are you expected to have children? I don't Yeah, I don't think it's right either. To expect people to have to have children, it's a choice. And I think that people should just respect it. As a caveat, I'll send you live for a week. But that's the thing though, I love taking care of children. I love educating them, as long as you bring them back, bring them back in when fees and all unhappy and all of that, but it was I woke up one day and I was like, you know, I really love my lifestyle. I still have a desire to travel. I love that all my money is mine. I I think that selfish people should not be encouraged to have children. And in some ways, I'm just like, you know, if I wanted to pack up and go to Bali or Africa or wherever, and not having to think about the cost, the ramifications of my decisions. I decided I just didn't want my lifestyle to change more than anything. It wasn't even that I didn't want to have children. I knew that the constant was that throughout my 36 years of living, I never had children. And I know that I'm able to work harder without impacting like if I have a kid and if Shankar has a kid he chunker is like for those of you who knows Shankar Ponce, he he would be the best out in the world like he gives 150% And we both be broke and we would both be exhausted because that's the kind of people that we are we show up 150% And we know that we would be ransacked, so we just have decided, we love the work. We our children are the ones in our company. So he's CEO of Shanks web development, I'm the CEO and we make sure that they get everything that they need the They have plenty of time to spend with their children. And we even give paternal leave, which is still not a huge thing here in the US. And we just believe that we want everybody to be able to fulfill their heart's desire. And so yeah, that's our sacrifices, not having children. I love it. And I live all of these different perspectives. I see burned. Am I saying your name, right? Yes, that's right. Yes, I am. Maybe I don't know if I'm a German. And I have three children. I have three boys. And would I change anything in the way I did? Run my career? Maybe. But did they influence my career? Yes, they did. And so. And the question is, would I do things different? Just because of the children? Yes, I would. And I did. And did they have positive or negative influence? That's not the that's not the question. I think in life, there's only two questions or directions. One is for love. You do things for love, and you do things for the glory. And if you sacrifice for the glory, that's the career and if you do things for the love, you do things for family and for your children. And now, I'm a single father, I'm a single father since 10 years, I got divorced, because I was traveling a little bit too much because of my career. But I decided to do less of that traveling and concentrate a little bit more on my children, because they needed more the Father, and they needed because also my my ex wife got sick. So she asked me to take over the children. And I, how can I say, I stopped traveling around the world. And I concentrated a little bit more on my children. I organized a little bit differently, how I see the work. And obviously, I, I still do a lot of work, but I don't compromise the life. Or let's say compromise the time with my children for work, I do more of that I did more of that they are now two of them. I grown up and studying. And I have only the last one that is 14 years old. And he's a ninth grader. And he's just he needs me. Still some I would say two to three years. And then I can concentrate a little bit more on my career again, again, coming back to the question, Do does having kids when people back in their careers? Yes, it does. And there is no, there is no free drinks in your life. There is nothing like you don't, you don't have to not compromise anything. Because you have kids. That's not true. When you have children, you have to do something for them. It's nothing that comes for free in life. But I I have to say what I did, I don't regret at all because they gave me so many others perspectives. And this they are a mirror of your life. And of course you talk sometimes you don't like them how they mirror yourself. And just the other day, my 14 years old said, Father, you you chose to have children. So you have to take care of me now. Because you I need you. And that's that's fine. And I do. But could I have better had a better career? Maybe? I don't know. And life is a course that is goes ups and downs. It's a journey. That's a long journey. And at the end of your life, that is where you look back. And people laying down on their bed and saying what did I do good and what I did wrong during your courses of life. That is something that you have to decide at the end of your life, not now. And so it is a long journey. So do kids hold your career back? Yes, that's absolutely true. But is it something you wouldn't do? No, I don't think so. My parents did the same for me. And I will do the same for my children. That's what I wanted to say. I love your I love your perspective and the fact that you're a single father, you know, tied the knot and like so many different perspectives in the conversation. What What was it like? Because there's a sort of empathy or like, understanding, I don't even know how to put this the right way. Maybe on trends. There's a better word for single moms, right? Like there's a certain like, oh, you're a single mom, but is do single dads get that same kind of empathy in your experience. Now 95% of divorced people are divorced educators are women, because usually the children are given to the women. And one second one second burn. And for people in the audience, like for me, I wasn't married. So it's not just divorced people, some people have children, you know, out of wedlock, too. But I just want to add that for the people in the audience, exactly. And do not forget, there is no man in the world that didn't go through the stomach of a woman. No. So it is nothing. Nothing in world happens without women being pregnant. to giving birth to Child's so this is often forgotten. So anything any man that is having a great career, it is not possible without a woman. Okay, but having aside this one aspect, no. Do they get the same recognitions, single fathers? Or I often I don't think about this, I don't see this, I have to do my job as a single father, and I do this do and I don't, I cannot compensate. A woman, I cannot compensate for the mother. Not I am not a single father, mother. I'm single father. So I do my job as a kind of bringing maybe I bring a little bit more order discipline or other stuff that maybe women do not. I don't know what I don't know. But I meant more like in the workplace or something. Because maybe if someone or just I don't you know, other people kind of in your career, if you're a single mom, there's a certain like, you know, you're an overcomer? Or maybe they'll give you a little bit more leeway. But do you think that? Yeah, do you know what I'm saying? On Tran? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I have that. Well, I had a, I had a beauty of having a female boss. And she had, she had a child as well. And she had all good understandings when I had to leave midday because my child had an incident at school or whatever. So I was, I'm lucky. I was lucky to have people around me that understood my situation. And physical, I was even an hour away from where are my children went to school. So it took me one hour to drive to them. This is differently to where I work. Now. I organized it different. So yes, people have understanding maybe for single fathers. But I would wish they had the same understanding for single mothers as well. And I don't think this, this should be the How can I say, could not be any difference between single mothers and single fathers? Don't you think? I mean, this has been an amazing conversation, if any of the speakers want to add something else, thanks for having this conversation. And I don't know if I'm the only one, one of the speakers who has chosen to be child free. But I still appreciate and honor all of the hard working parents who have done everything above and beyond to be the best parent that they could be to their child. And I hope that if you I think Ambreen said that, okay, maybe for right now these few years, while my child is young, I have to make the sacrifices. But I know that when they're older, and I think it's really important to hold on to hope and keep your your dreams alive, whatever they are, you never know when that opportunity will come where you're able to advance or go to maybe someplace where you thought you wouldn't be able to. Because children are a joy, and we need them and I'm I'm happy I'm here. So I'm happy that my mother made the sacrifices that she did. And I just want everybody to keep holding strong. And remember, you're not the only one feeling like the only one sometimes you have a community. I love it burnt. Did you want to say something? No, absolutely. Andrea, don't be don't be shy. I mean, there's a there's enough children in the world are going through eight people soon on the earth. So anybody who's decides not to having children? Does a responsible move. I don't think this is a wrong decision. Children and well, I would say it's a very personal choice to have children. And again, it's not a free drinks there is a consequence in life. So I think we should give everybody this freedom to decide if he wants to have children or not. I love it. This is I think, the Yeah, I'm bringing did you want to add something? Yeah, Sinead, thank you, thank you so much for this conversation. And I just want to know this side where, you know, not having a child is also. So my so much stressful, you know, the questions that Andre had to answer to, I hope no one has to answer those questions. Right. And there are other things, you know, if you don't want to I, our body changes, and we we go through these changes by having a kid. But then we can also adopt, there's so many kids out there that need loving parents, like you. So you can you know, in the future, maybe when you feel like maybe I can, can you know, even go for other options. And I would like to really thank you for, you know, letting me have this conversation today because having kids has hold it my career for a while, but it's for the best because sometimes we need this balance in life, where we want to focus, you know, not on just the work, but other other things. Happiness of a family, happiness of a home. So this is this is I think, what I'm focusing on right now, thank you so much to Marcel. Yeah, well, I thank you for the conversation. Very good comment. The only thing maybe to close up on my end, is that, at the end, there is also a certain pleasure of finding things out. In other words, find solution, you cannot blame everything and sometimes get scams and you don't have you are not the career level that you're supposed to be when you had kids. And guess what you got to figure it out. And our brain is definitely trained to figure things out and solve the problem. And it's, maybe that's a fair, a fair kind of analysis on my end. On what Yes, I mean, I am a word of mouth and I got I can I'll jump off the throat and I gotta figure it out. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much. And I appreciate all of you who came up to speak this was I think, the best conversation through audio that I've hosted so far, and I'm gonna get better and better at it myself. So just look out for more audio rooms on my profile. And I appreciate all of you have a safe flight to Moscow. Have a great weekend, everyone and God bless you, ciao.